Richmond Proper: On admiring the tattoos of others
It’s the time of year when people shed their clothes and expose their most intimate of body parts—the ones with tattoos on them! Richmond is a panoply of tattooed individuals, and this begs the question: how do we go about complimenting and asking about those tattoos without being rude?
Show me a man with a tattoo and I’ll show you a man with an interesting past.
— JACK LONDON, 1883
As she is in the middle of a very laborious (and very exhausting) home renovation, I thought it would be appropriate, no, gentleman-like (proper, if you will) to present Tess Shebaylo with a week off from her regular column that guides us through the ins-and-outs of a polite society. So, dear reader, you and I will be with each other for the next few minutes, and I have something that I would like to discuss with you.
June is one of the most lovely months, don’t you think? Flowers are blooming, birds are chirping, and people are strolling through the many neighborhoods and districts of Richmond proper, enjoying the warm weather and minimal need for clothing. But we Richmonders are likely to come across more than just bare skin.
Richmond is the third most tattooed city in the country. More than New York City. More than San Francisco. As a result, this summer you will probably encounter people, like myself, who have tattoos. Lots of tattoos. And although you may not think that there is a need to discuss proper manners when looking at tattoos, I can attest from personal experience that many Richmonders miss the mark when it comes to tattoo etiquette.
I’ve had people come up to me, prefacing their impromptu presence in my life without even so much as a “Hello,” and immediately lift a sleeve of my t-shirt up to my shoulder to look at my tattoos. I’ve had people, mostly middle-aged women (but not exclusively) stroke my arms and legs with their curious hands, taking in the art that adorns my flesh. All without asking if they may do so. I must say, I am flattered when these well-intentioned, if not misguided, individuals compliment the aesthetic quality of my tattoos. I really do. And I understand that, even in tattoo-burdened Richmond, someone with a tattoo collection as rich and extensive as mine is by far par for the course.
But we with tattoos are not sideshow spectacles in a touring circus act. And we do not want to be treated as such. My surfeit of tattoos does not, ipso facto, make me someone that you can molest and manhandle to your heart’s content. Am I not a man? Did I not bleed for each tattoo? It is, I’m sad to say, a too uncommon courtesy to ask someone if they would allow you to look at their tattoos. Do you approach a severely burned individual and begin stroking their damaged flesh like it were Braille? Of course you wouldn’t.
In my experience, most people with an extensive tattoo collection love to hear compliments of their work. Please do give them. But preface such an interest in their tattoos by saying something along the lines of, “Excuse me, I think your tattoos look really cool. May I look at them more closely?” This simple extension of politeness will go a long way to ingratiate yourself with your sentient (and very sensitive) subject.
As you gaze upon the array of pigment that stretches across their skin, you may feel the compulsion to ask, “What do your tattoos mean?” There is probably no other question that makes a tattooed individual shudder in annoyance more than this one. It’s a fair question, to be sure. I don’t disagree with that. But most tattoos are a very personal engagement that one has with their design(s). For some it may commemorate, celebrate, even pontificate on one of many of their life’s experiences. It’s very much like if you were to look at a collection of framed photographs in someone’s home. Coming across a picture taken at their wedding, you would then ask without contextual provocation, “Why did you marry this person?” What a silly (and rude) question! Unless you are a police officer questioning a suspect, please control yourself and your interrogative predilections.
Tattoos, like spouses, mean different things to different people; things that one may not be comfortable in divulging while they’re strolling through Carytown, or waiting in line at Starbucks for their Mocha Frappuccino. Unless they are forthcoming with the story that inspired their tattoo themselves, respect their privacy and refrain from asking. What may appear as a frivolous piece of art is, more often than not, something quite meaningful.
Again, I do not want to dissuade you from complimenting the art that you will be seeing as the summer progresses. I hope that you do so. But remind yourself that people are not spectacles created for your whims of enjoyment. As always, be thoughtful; not thoughtless.
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Nathan Cushing
Nathan Cushing is a writer, journalist, and RVANews Editor.
Notice: Comments that are not conducive to an interesting and thoughtful conversation may be removed at the editor’s discretion.
Love this, Nathan! And it hearkens back to personal space etiquette in general: http://rvanews.com/features/richmond-proper-on-personal-space/26986
This immediately reminded me of how people will touch, and say anything to, women when they’re pregnant. While someone may enjoy talking about it, do not assume that. Just like you said… Extend the courtesy of asking!!
I think “look but don’t touch” should apply to everyone, everywhere: the tattooed, the pregnant, the pierced, etc. Keep one’s hands to one’s own person! I have tattoos, and used to have hip-length hair, and not only would I get tattoo questions (still do, that’s what happens when you get a Tengwar tattoo in a visible place), but people would touch my hair all the time without my permission! It’s really, really weird to suddenly have a stranger stroke your hair.
So yup. Hands no, compliments yes!
I admire tattoos on people with the same admiration I have when I see people with open syphilis sores.
I can hear your voice in there, Nathan! Well spake, sir!
doh. now i understand. tattoos are not “spectacles created for your whims of enjoyment.”
yes, that should extend to my swarthy, south-asian face when I neglect to shave but people are far more likely to stare than rudely accost the inked and irksome. “violins”
it’s spelled “braille” :P
Good catch! Thanks for looking out.
Yes, your column is grammatically correct. However, I predict you will be the butt of many a snide comment or quiet chuckle in the years to come.You may eventually come to realize that “nautical stars” are in fact, not unique, or that no one really cares about the skulls on your forearm. As you age and your once “cool” tattoos become smudges and blurred Rorschach-like designs, you will find yourself doing even more explaining and garnering an increased number of strange looks and stares as your “great art” succumbs to wrinkles and liver spots. As you become older, you may realize not everyone loves some little-known band that once played in Richmond , yet you have dedicated a significant surface area of your hide to spreading their fame. As the number of candles on your birthday cake grows, your body will gradually develop fissures, crusts, and lesions of various sorts which will serve only to accentuate the bats, flowers, and cupcakes that so many scenester kids have found necessary to adorn their appendages with. Certainly, all these cool designs will prove ample conversation topics in job interviews and serve to inspire confidence in your foresight and levelheadedness if you are ever asked to assume a position of responsibility and leadership aside from leading the pack of “tall bikes” up and down the measly expanses of the Richmond area. When you put great efforts and expense into making yourself look like a freak show, you should expect strange looks. Have fun!
Bopst is an aging hipster douchebag who is running out of cool things to hate. I’m sure he has a lot of experience with syphilis though. Go back to your sad little local radio show and your column in……oh wait that’s right, that newspaper doesn’t exist anymore….oh so sad!
Great read and good advice, but…Tattoos on visible skin are not like private photos in one’s home. It has been my experience that people with “lots” of tattoos want to be noticed and want to talk about them. I believe it is the equivelent of me walking around with a 5×7 picture from my wedding around my neck…people will ask.
If you do not want the attention either don’t show them or don’t get them in obvious places for people to view.
By your reasoning Zack, people don’t have a right to do anything to their own bodies and be left alone about it, if it’s visible to others? There is so much stupidity in your statement, I just don’t know where to start…
Hey Cramp – Nice post. I agree with people being respectful of others. I don’t think going up to someone and just touching them is appropriate. But having a visible tattoo is your choice and people place them in sight for a reason. Let’s compare tattoos to artwork (which most are). If I do a personal painting and hang it in a public place visible to all, I should expect comments; as opposed to my painting that hangs in my home.
I guess he’s cramping your style, uh?
While I understand your point about keeping your hands and questions to yourself, did you really compare your tattoos to the skin of a burn victim??? I find that very offensive. You got your tattoos by choice – a burn victim is just that, a victim.
@haters – Good lord! Why on earth would you say things like that? Just to be mean-spirited? Who knew a harmless form of self-expression could get people’s dander up so quickly. I worry about your blood pressure levels if you have to maintain this level of irritation all the time. What good does it do you personally to alienate individuals because of the various colors of their skin? Surely there are worse things, right? Life can be better! Let’s go get lemonades! I have a dream, people!
If I could, I’d insert a pic of Morgan Freeman in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, here. THE PAINTED MAN!
Again, your body is in a continual state of deterioration. It’s worse today than it was yesterday, and it will be even worse tomorrow. It’s called entropy. Your body is amazing in its capability to regenerate and maintain areas of wear and tear, such as in the joints of our skeleton or the lining of our intestine. However, some silly dyes injected into your skin and later incorporated into macrophages can only become increasingly disorganized and descend in quality, resolution, and coolness. I’m sure you don’t keep pictures you colored at age five on your refrigerator at age 55. It’s akin to being given a nice bedroom and spray painting the walls with graffiti. It may look cool for a bit, while all your friends have a circle jerk about how unique they all are, but eventually, most will realize it looks trashy and is not original. I am all for complete personal freedom, so please do not feel shy about covering your skin with amateur scrawls and doodles; it is all yours. With the same spirit, however, I fully support people not hiring you or associating with you, or gawking at your cliche and played out tattoo designs because you look like a fool. My impression of your column is that you seem slightly hurt by the negative vibes and attention you receive. You may not have bargained for the fact that first impressions are very important and people will judge you by your appearance whether you like their verdict or not. It’s hard to not ponder “what was this person thinking?!?” (in a negative way) when I see someone with a name of a former significant other on their neck, or a rose on the titty of an obese 50-year old, or even a VERY unique skull on the arms of a young hipster. Significant scorn will be saved for the silly girls who think that a big broken heart on their chest will be the ticket to penultimate coolness. We all know that you are the only person in the whole world to have thought of such a unique way to express yourself. It will look even better in 30 years when it is faded, blurred and looks like a big stain. Your kids will be impressed by your great wisdom and foresight. It’s often said a picture is worth a thousand words, but if your life and identity is simple enough to be permanently condensed into a few pages of 12 point font, you probably don’t have much to bring to the table anyhow. Enjoy working at dead end jobs, feigning an air of coolness, and pretending you’re not as old as you are so you can still impress the fools who can’t see through your perpetual immaturity.
I’d just like to make a quick note to Observer to say that I am covered in tattoos and have a career that is no where near a “dead end job.” Oh and I’m not expected to cover up or hide any of my tattoos. Ever.
Mr.McDonald, that’s wonderful. I’m glad to hear you are doing well for yourself. However, if what you say is indeed accurate, you are certainly the exception rather than the rule, and in the vast majority of cases, your appearance would be a hindrance rather than an asset for an employer. There are some occupations that would love to have a decorated gentleman or would not care, such as: tattoo artist, tire mechanic, janitor, or fast food manager. Others not so much: public school principal, state governor, dentist, or public relations officer. You see, the vast majority of our current society, whether justified or not, does not accept the professionalism or associated connotations of large, visible tattoos. They were, and still are, considered by most people, to represent a certain lack of class. Instead, they portray an image of being on the fringes of society, willingness to break rules, and disregard for the status quo. Although this may not be fair to the many who impulsively cover themselves in tattoos over short periods to fit in with the scenester crowd, I do honestly believe that the majority of people currently in positions of influence do not choose to cover themselves in amateur coloring-book content, nor do they wish themselves to be represented by such people, regardless of their good intentions. If you don’t believe me, take a look at most professional organizations regarding dress codes. In most white collar jobs they are still enforced, for good or ill, and are known as “white collar” for that reason. If you are one of the few who has some exceptional talent, intelligence, or skill that you are able to dictate the terms of your employment to the world, I applaud you. However, if one is just average, as most of us are, being covered in tattoos will almost certainly permanently exclude you from a wide swath of occupations and roles in our society. I’m not saying this is fair, rather just the way it is in this current economy and moment in time. Why do you think tattoo removal is such a large business? Even Wal-Mart has an OTC device a la Brillo Pad to take off those once oh-so-cool tattoos. Why do plastic surgeons make six figures removing ink from the hides of chumps? How can this be?!? Please do tell!
Respectfully,
Observer
Observer
What?
Somebody call Gimli and Legolas, we have a troll for them battle.
In the unlikely case that Observer is expressing his/her real feelings and is not, as I suspect, an internet troll, I’d like to also weigh in as someone completely covered in tattoos who has a very respectable rep job with one of the oldest and most respected MI manufacturer’s in the U.S. and Germany.
There are discrete and identified areas of our brains that respond to very specific shapes: vertical lines, horizontal lines, cubes, circles. There is also the fulsiform gyrus, which solely catalogs faces, and our tendency to upchuck when our immediate surroundings (say below-decks of a ship) do not match the motion of our bodies. These are all features (which ensure your survival) of a system which is programmed to recognize even minute differences in those around us and our environment. A rather extreme deviation from the norm of bare skin is no different and should necessitate no scratching of the head a la Caveman Lawyer–if its really upsetting be honest enough to use an expletive and an aggressive brushoff–something that even dogs have the courtesy to do. RRRRUFFFF!
Observer – Tattoos not for you, and that’s cool, but pipe down about it. If it offends your good taste, then you should probably get over it or just board up the windows of your abode from the inside. Your call.
Unique tatttoos don’t exist, you’re right on that one, but when someone gets themselves tattooed it’s THEIR tattoo and nobody else’s. No matter what it is, it is theirs, they earned it. It doesn’t have to mean anything, it doesn’t have to be special, fuck, it doesn’t even need to be pretty. Much in the same right, I have a penny my grandfather gave me when I was a kid, it was his lucky penny and now it’s mine. There are literally tons of pennies exactly like it, but that one rtells me of my grandfather, much in the same way my, and many others, tattoos serve as reminders of time past and experiences known. You. Just. Can’t. Fuck. With. That.
And real quick, you mentioned careers in which you wouldn’t expect the professional types employed in such field to be wearers of tattoos…
…I have a number of clients that are teachers, educators, law enforcement, and cooperate managers. You wouldn’t believe some of the shit I’ve seen and heard from your precious “white collar” wearers…really makes my breed of heathen stand out as good guys.
The only real difference in people with tattoos and those without is that those with tattoos don’t give a shit if you don’t have them.
I don’t give a flying fuck what you do to your body, why do you care what I do to mine? I’m sorry your life isn’t very interesting that you need to focus on others. I actually feel sorry for Observer and all the other trolls like him.
Thank you to all who responded; please rest assured I am not trying to troll. I am merely stating some opinions, rather than facts, that I have formed over the past few years that I’ve lived in the city. I happened upon this article originally via Google News rather than searching for a parade to rain upon. I will address each of your points individually.
22. Matt: I’m not sure what an “MI manufacturer” is. Tattoos certainly do not preclude one from employment, provided that they are well hidden and not offensive to the economic circle that you deal with. But, you probably wouldn’t want them to be the topic of a job interview, and if you have to explain them, you might rather focus on your achievements rather than the doodlings on your flesh. However, I’ll bet you that if you have a high stakes sales proposition to make with an unfamiliar client, you likely ensure that your favorite art is well covered. Do you?
23. Nandalal: Your comment was a bit discordant. I must add your neuroanatomy is also slightly incorrect re: the role of the vestibular system. However, logical people have no use for profanity. If I cannot present to you a believable proposition, why should cursing or shouting make it any more legitimate?
24. CBP: Your comment was not inaccurate. I agree with most of the points you made. There are professional people with tattoos, just as there are professionals who never wear shirts or ties. I would propose, though, that they likely are discreet in their display. I have known professionals with easily hidden tattoos but never any with obvious neck, wrist, or facial inkings.
To all:
My main point is that the majority of the movers and shakers in our current society holds a relative scorn for those with great increase of subdermal artwork. By joining this category you put yourself at a disadvantage to be taken seriously by people who are, legitimately or not, in positions to make our lives easier or more difficult. Therefore, do not be alarmed when people question your stability or look at you funny when your arms are covered in goofy, childish, yet permanent designs.
One more question for everyone: Why is the tattoo removal industry such a lucrative and well-established entity? Surely if these artwork creations were of such infinite value, no one in their right mind would ever think of removing something that means so much and is so useful! It would be like cutting off your thumbs if this were the case; yet there is no thumb removal industry. I think you will have to admit that many, as they grow older, do eventually find their youthful tattoos burdensome and a hindrance rather than the great mark of individuality and meaning they once represented to a young mind. I heard a radio commercial not too long ago hawking the ability to “…get rid of that old embarrassing tattoo!”. Now, the radio airwaves are not inarguable truth, but it points to the fact that there are people out there who once thought much like my detractors, yet changed their position to the point that they will undergo additional pain to improve their appearance. Now how could this be?
Observer
i have two tattoos, neither visible fully clothed, so maybe i can’t weigh in, but i’m a school teacher. and i wouldn’t label myself a “hipster” either. i got them both for reasons that i think are truly beautiful and special, and my mother thinks they are lovely. so back to the original point, although both of my tattoos have stories, the story is pretty personal. the tattoos themselves are pretty on their own, and can be enjoyed as art for art’s sake, so unless we are buddies, i don’t think it’s your business why i got them.
@observer maybe you should try a massage and a stiff drink? there are ways to be happy other than tearing down others.
@susan howson i like lemonades!
Observer
1. This article while talking about tattoos is more about an invasion of personal space
2. I don’t think anyone is surprised by people looking at or being mystified by ink on skin. It’s more about the fact that people walk up and grab them to look at their tattoos.
3. No matter what people are checking out on a person it’s inappropriate to just grab someone. Otherwise I’d be grabbin ass and titties all day.
4. If this article was about the downfall of richmond due to the high population of tattoed people all of your points and opinions would make sense.
Wow…I did not know that Richmond was one of the most tatted cities, and here I was wandering where my obsession with ink came from.
I can totally identify with you with the whole random stranger walks up to you and begins to remove your clothing to get a better look.
I have a tattoo across my chest that is so meaningful to me. And that why we get them right? Because it means something to us and we want to share it with the world. I dont mind letting people get a closer look at my tats, because I enjoy sharing the stories with them. I dont even mind having to unbutton so people can see the full tattoo on my chest. SO go ahead, inquire away, just dont make crass jokes or requests, thats just rude.
nathan – great article, except for one major thing (bex posted about it, i want to reiterate): seriously? not only was there no need or relation in comparing the skin of someone tattooed, with that of a burn victim, it was just crass and offensive. way off the mark on that one. you should probably apologize… (full disclosure, i am *not* a burn victim, i *am* heavily tattooed.)
Don’t apologize, Nathan, for making an analogy that a couple of people find offensive.
It obviously was not meant to be offensive to burn victims. It wasn’t “crass” as Valerie put it. If it offended you, then that is your problem. I could understand being upset if he made a tasteless joke about burns, but he didn’t. He used it in a respectful context.
So calm the f**k down please.
@Jim -I could maybe see your point if this was not the column: Richmond Proper. There is nothing “gentleman-like” about that comparison.
@Observer
Do they have internet under the bridge from which you frighten hapless billy goats or do you walk to the library?
In typical troll fashion, you started your posting off with some snide, derogatory comments then back-peddled to try and come off as this legitimate, logical poster with a valid argument.
Sorry folks, sometimes it’s uncomfortable to admit the truth. You can call me a troll all you want. My feelings remain unhurt. Yes, my first post may have been both derogatory and snide. However, in my opinion, the column itself is written with an air of victimization and temper tantrum-esque mentality in order to say “look at me! I’m cool, and also very special!”. You folks that have covered yourself in “unique” designs of the lowest caliber that many other people have already had etched into their integument seem flabbergasted when you garner stares and jeers from others because you look like a freak. It’s akin to standing in the rain after throwing away your umbrella and wondering why you are wet. You probably don’t want to consider or contemplate admitting that your flesh is pretty much screwed permanently, in order to gain the attention of your ‘friends’ for a brief phase of your life. The only people who will accept you now that you look like some sort of misguided biker are those with the same kind of attention seeking personality as many who have commented almost certainly posses. What kind of an intellectual thinks that they will improve upon the function or appearance of many eons of human evolution by scrawling some pre-drawn flash art on their body? Come on people! How shallow must you be to consider something that hangs on the wall of a crusty tattoo shop as a commercial article for sale so meaningful that you must display it prominently for the rest of your life? I’m sure we all have a t-shirt that we consider our favorite, yet no one would consider wearing only this garment for the remainder of their days on earth. When someone decorates their visible body parts with silly designs someone thinks are cool, you are in essence putting on a garment you cannot easily remove. The condescending stares and opportunity discrimination will come in good time as your peers who did grow up and out of a phase of trying to fit in to impress their friends see how crass and goofy you look. It’s hard to take a grown adult seriously when they have such things as paperclips, robots, rabbits, cupcakes, ghosts, or a former significant other’s name all over their skin. These kinds of cliche and played-out permanent mishmash show a lack of self respect, a lack of sense of identity, a lack of foresight, a disregard for the norms of our society and a propensity towards impulsive behavior like one might see in a immature teenager.
No one here has yet to address the question of the tattoo removal industry. After listening to your replies, I decided to investigate this area a bit further. It turns out there are quite a few doctors, “med-spas”, and even tattoo parlors that offer this service, both locally and nationwide. I guess they exist strictly to cater to a non-existent clientele, since you folks with tattoos have made such a sound and well planned decision to write some name or goofy clip art on your very hide. Here is a link to a news story that may tickle your gizzard:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/item_Y3sQ01DKIeW41WULZKU6tN
Have fun riding your Tomos mopeds, long boards, and tall bikes all the way to the tattoo removal store while swishing your mop-top emo hair in front of your scowling and self-loathing grill.
Observer.
Hi all,
Here’s another link to a recent news article for your reading pleasure:
http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/research-innovations/stories/tattoo-laser-removal-makes-decision-to-get-tattoo-easier
A key quote from a dermatologist featured in the article:
..
“I can’t tell you how many people I’ve worked on who have tattoos who wish they had never gotten one,” Jackson said, adding that interest in the technology is on the rise. “They get one as teens or in their early 20s and then need to interview to get a job and wonder why they aren’t getting hired.”
Stay classy, all ye emo-scenster-punk kids! Your moment to shine will come someday!
=)
Observer.
This has been the best comment thread ever.
Jim, he may not have meant for it to be offensive, but I think it is. Like I said, getting a tattoo is a choice. So to compare the stares and comments you may get because of a choice you made cannot be compared to the skin of a burn victim. So it is not a respectful analogy, in my opinon.
And “calm the f*ck down”? Because we are stating our opinions about an article on a message board where comments are to be posted? I mean, that’s what it’s here for, right?
@Observer
So are you originally from Richnond originally or did you move here from the abandoned dwarf mines of Moria? Are you bummed on tattoos because your Orc handlers had them?
Minus one “originally” on that last post.
jim/nathan/anyone reading this (other than what the troll puts up):
just a quick check to make sure i used my words correctly, and yes, i did – Crass: without refinement, delicacy, or sensitivity (dictionary.com). if i find the comparison offensive, i’m willing to bet other folks did as well, and only a few of us are taking the time to call attention to it. who’s excited? i didn’t use all caps, i didn’t cuss, i don’t even think i used exclamation points! it *was* tasteless, regardless of not being a joke, because there *is no comparison*. i have tattoos in visible places by choice. i knew what i was doing when i sat for them. i realized very well what that could mean when people looked at me. maybe because i’ve never experienced someone grabbing my arm and stroking my skin while inquiring about my tattoos, i don’t get it. but i’m pretty sure burn victims do not get grabbed by the arm, and have their scars stroked. because that would be crass. and offensive. and everyone knows that… do you mind weighing in on this, nathan?
Ha, you clowns crack me up. Not only can you not properly use the English language as regards spelling, punctuation, and capitalization, but you must resort to name calling and obfuscation rather than address the points and questions that I raised. You have about three comments now with movie references but have failed to answer even one of my honest questions that I brought up. It’s interesting that Valerie and Bex both noted your comparison as regards burn victims and called it out. This reinforces what I said in an earlier post that this column is angled from a victimized viewpoint. You kids that once thought many square feet of highly visible tattoos would be so cool now must deal with the shame and discrimination that they will inevitably garner. You’re pathetic. A burn patient may look mutilated and distorted but not because they were making a permanent statement to be cool. Rather, in the vast majority of cases, their injury and different appearance was acquired through no conscious intention of their own. Instead, you with gobs of impulsively acquired tattoos make a great financial and somatic effort to decorate yourselves much akin to a sticker collection. Then, you demand pity, sympathy, and a waiver for the strange looks you receive. You are clearly very immature to not realize that most people without highly visible ink think negatively of your childish designs and phrases which make up the vast majority of your ‘artwork’. Because of this, you must be prepared for negative reactions when you apply for jobs, attempt to project a sense of competence, or argue that you do not, indeed, have a short sighted and impulsive method of behavior.
I would really appreciate an answer to my question that I proposed as regards tattoo removal.
Have a great day.
Observer.
No one is answering your questions, Observer, because it’s obvious you are just trying to start a flame war for your own enjoyment. What’s the matter, nothing better to do with your day? Keep calling people childish names, while they live their happy lives and you sit in front of your computer waiting for someone to incite you to spout more of your nonsense.
You definitely come off as a guy who is pretty jealous and upset that he’s never been one of the “cool kids”. Why else would it bother you how other people live their lives?
Your assumption that all people with tattoos are “emo hipsters on mopeds” is pretty silly. Is that really all you have, the same old hyperbolic argument that doesn’t prove a point at all? Kudos to you sir, keep the sad little man-child movement going!
So here’s a question for you: You love to bitch that people with tattoos have made horrible life choices and will never get a good job, so what is it that you do for a living? (Other than jerking off to your own comments)
I’ll wait patiently for your answer, although I’m sure you don’t have much going on in your life, so I won’t have to wait long…
@Valerie – I do appreciate your concerns about my analogy, and you voicing them in the comments (that’s why the comment thread is there!). But I disagree. You recently wrote: “but i’m pretty sure burn victims do not get grabbed by the arm, and have their scars stroked. because that would be crass. and offensive. and everyone knows that.” I couldn’t agree with you any more! And that’s precisely the sentiment that I was going for (and feel that I achieved) in the article: to point out how contemptibly churlish it would be for someone to do that. I wrote the article assuming that most (if not all) people believed this point as you and I do.
Although a bit hyperbolic (deliberately done to stress a point), the analogy was meant to connect the rudeness of treating a burned victim as a mere prop with that of treating a tattooed individual as a mere prop. I do not wish you, or anyone, to think that I would poke fun of burned victims. Never would I do such a thing (because it would be crass, to say the least).
The mast majority of readers, however, do not share your views on the “rude” timbre of my words. But this sort of thing happens. I do not wish for you to feel unwelcome in this, or any, comment thread here at RVANews. In fact, I’m very grateful that you voiced your opinions. Even though I, and most others, do not agree with you.
Hi Jim,
I don’t need to worry about your coolness or lack thereof. I’m not trolling, but I am commenting on an article. When people get their feelings hurt they often shout “troll!”. This phenomenon is not exclusive to this forum; take a look at any news site or other online comment thread and you will see that when an individual criticizes the status quo and accepted viewpoints of a certain community they will be labeled as a troll, flamebaiter, etc. It’s a defense mechanism used by people across the spectrum of beliefs, from right to left wing, in order to dismiss other beliefs and criticism of their viewpoints as illegitimate and stifle debate.
My comments generate replies, but not in response to my questions. People clearly feel a need to respond, but they skirt the issue by dismissing them rather than directly address my points. This likely shows that the answers that are correct would be uncomfortable for you to admit.
As for my employment, I receive my paychecks from the US Department of Defense.
Observer.
Troll,
So our tax dollars are paying for you to argue with employed, educated adults about why they shouldn’t be subject to personal space violation because they have tattoos? Fantastic.
Also, I was referencing children’s literature and Tolkien, unless there’s some motion picture version of “Three Billy Goats Gruff” I’m unaware of.
As for your big argument, I’d hope you notice that none of the articles or statistics on tattoo removal reflect the percentage of tattoos on the bodies of those getting the procedure.
Any “observer” would notice that there’s a distinct difference between someone who gets a tribal lower-back piece on spring break and someone who has tattoos from their chest to their knuckles. One is a likely indicator of a need to get a single tattoo, where as the latter shows a commitment to the art of tattooing.
Those of us with extensive tattooing are the ones more likely to get harassed than those with a single piece of kanji on their bicep or breast. Thus, I would submit, those comprising the population upon which your removal argument is based are really not the ones being addressed here. Essentially, there is a difference between “having a tattoo(s)” and “being tattooed”.
You’ll no doubt have some response to this, but your derogatory comments, lack of a name or hyperlink, and aforementioned backpedaling nature labels you a troll. So this will be my final response.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab180/rimewind/Do-not-feed-the-troll.png?t=1275671315
Hi Matt,
Yes, I am paid by tax dollars, but it is because of my commitment to the public service of this country. Those of us in the armed forces have submitted to an exceptional level of control and given up many freedoms that the civilian populace enjoys to receive this money, so I have no qualms about ‘getting the goat’ of such as will take the time to read and reply to what I may say. You can call me a troll all you want, but since you didn’t invent this term and because I have seen it thrown around so frequently as a response to any point of view divergent from that espoused by a given website’s patrons, it basically means nothing to me other than you can’t come up with an equally stinging comeback. I consider it about as meaningful as calling someone a ‘Nazi’ on a forum, which happens ad nauseum on a daily basis on many a website when orthodox viewpoints are challenged. Online discussions, by their very nature, are not as polite as a courtroom, but I honestly welcome an open debate. I will concede, as I did in an earlier post, that my comments were not impartial or the most polite. I structured my comments in this manner because the of the juvenile audience that had lead the way in posting replies to this article. I also made it clear I was stating my opinion rather than immutable facts. However, they were not that harsh or inaccurate in my viewpoint. I do not feel the need to curse as several above commentators did, as foul language cannot replace reason in a debate.
Many people covered in tattoos do in fact ride mopeds and dress in the ’emo’ or ‘scenster’ manner, and should I select a random moped rider from a pack of them, the chances are very good that they would have a few gaudy, tacky, clip art tattoos. Of course, this is not an absolute, but I think that statistically the odds are in favor of it occurring. Just look at the people on tall bikes–by and large the vast majority of them seem ‘dedicated to the art of tattooing’. This sort of desperate cry for attention doesn’t impress me; rather, it makes me question your mental health.
This is why the vast majority of those ‘dedicated to the art of tattooing’ will find a certain negative social stigma and level of discrimination against them in many circumstances. I probably will never have the pleasure interviewing you for employment, but I would wager that the majority of the people who do such things do not advertise that the minimum qualifications for a public position of responsibility and scrutiny must include ‘dedicated to the art of tattooing’ or ‘large percentage of body surface area must be covered by corny designs’.
Observer.
@Observer- First off, I’m curious as to your age, if you’re not put off by the question…if you don’t want to share I’m cool with that. I’m merely curious. It is my belief that as the media helps to shape opinion and culture of younger generations (such as my generation and that of my children–for better or worse) many things considered totally freakshow in nature by an older crowd are becoming more acceptable. I see more and more “respectable” folk sporting body art, unusual piercings, unnaturally colored hair, men with long hair, things that wouldn’t be OK even ten or twenty years ago. Many forms of “alternate lifestyle” are becoming at least tolerated. Even the military is taking another look at DADT, as I’m sure you’re aware. (By the way, my husband is in the Army and has ink, as do many of his Army pals.) But you are right that it leaves more opportunities open in the world of stuffy, conservative professions if one doesn’t look “different.” However I question whether the man with neck tattoos really has aspirations of becoming an advisor at Edward Jones, or would perhaps dream of being an artist or musician instead. Still, it is his very own choice. Whether you like it or not, we’re moving towards an American culture that respects his right to live as he pleases instead of judging as inferior everyone who doesn’t agree with one’s own particular point of view. And I doubt he thought, while sitting for his ink, “Damn…and there goes my future as a CEO of a multinational corporation. I had that one in the bag, too!” As for aging with ink, I would argue that an 80 year old woman is going to look pretty rough regardless. Shall she mourn the loss of her youthful beauty more or less when it comes with the deteriorations of her art? My only ink is on my ribs…where I can cover or show it as I please…the only deterioration I worry about is if I ever needed surgery as my husband once did, if they had to cut it up I would be sad. And then I’d get more extensive tats to alter the design into something I could live with. Tattoo removal shops do great business because a lot of people, especially young people following trends, do things that they regret. There is a very different mentality from the fully inked person who worships the art form, to the person documenting life changing moments like a birth or death, to the ditzy 18 year old chick who just had to get a dolphin on her ankle. I drew my own art, and it is absolutely unique. No one has anything like it, because it came from my head and my spirit. I will proudly sport it until I die, though with my attempts to make use of my accounting/financial services degree comes the knowledge that I won’t be getting ink on my neck anytime soon, and I can live with that too. I find that once I get any office job, like the well paying one I’ve got now, and I’ve been there just a little while, I will wind up with at least a few coworkers who have ink, and/or who want to see mine. But it falls into the realm of things I don’t bring right out there on first acquaintance in a new job or interview.
As for the topic of the actual article, respect for other people who have ink, I second the notion that uninvited physical contact is absolutely NOT OK. But I would also put out there that having tats gives a person no right to act like an uppity snob about it. I get really irritated when I’m at a concert or something, and want to look at or politely comment on someone’s art and they act put out that I have the nerve to speak in their presence…what, because I lack full sleeves I’m not cool enough to tell you yours look awesome? So in response to the article itself, I’d say those sporting ink need to be prepared to gracefully accept respectful admiration and not act defensive automatically. Many of us don’t think you’re a freak, many of us sincerely appreciate your art! A quick “Thanks” won’t kill you.
Julie, thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate the fact that you used reasonable arguments to make your point rather than the fingers-in-ears “la-la-la-la I can’t hear you” approach of others. You make some very valid points. I am 24 years old, and I would hope that we are in fact moving towards a society where an individual’s total freedom is respected. I stated something similar to this in one of my first posts. I would like to see a society with as few laws and regulations as possible and complete freedom for the individual. This certainly includes the freedom to get as many tattoos wherever, however, and in whatever manner one chooses. This freedom also would allow people to associate or shun one because of their tattoos or lack thereof. In an ideal world, this would be a moot point. However, we live in Richmond in 2011 and unfortunately this is not the case. The reality is that tattoos in obvious locations are socially and economically disadvantageous in our current society. They have a negative connotation that the majority of the folks in power share. If the world was one big coffee shop or moped crew, there might be equal disadvantage for those of us without ink. But, this is not the case, and I doubt you will see those in power suddenly exchange their suits, ties, and Mercedes for scarfs, nautical star tattoos, stocking caps in the summer and a tall bike for their wheels. When in Rome, do as the Romans; the current level of tattoo acceptability socially and professionally is very low; although it may not be fair, I think it is the ‘coin of the realm’ so to speak.
My main motivation in responding to this article is to put forth the point that those who get all kinds of very prominent and visible tattoos should not expect anything other than stares and discrimination. The author’s column seems to project an air of victim hood and bewilderment that they receive funny looks. My position is that you did it to yourself and it is to be expected in our current time and place; you shouldn’t act surprised when you are gawked at or denied a job because you have a spider on your neck or a line of tiger paw prints on your titty.
The quote by Jack London is included, in my opinion, to present the air that somehow those that are discriminated against for their tattoos are a bit akin to a messiah or martyr; someone wronged and too far advanced for the world we have found ourselves in. Maybe his quote was true a hundred years ago; now that Richmond has a tattoo shop on every corner it is quite the opposite.
Observer.
@Observer.. While attention is a(n often unwanted) side effect or symptom, as it were, it is not The Reason people get tattooed, it’s not to fit in, it’s not to be cool, it’s because they like tattoos. Being tattooed does not gain you entrance to the “cool guy room” and membership card for all the events. Lots of “un-cool” people have tattoos, people like yourself for example. I’m sorry you grew up as a nerd and dork and I truly feel bad that you had to sadly watch all the other kids who were not scared of living do all the fun stuff while you probably played Organized, or Safe and Controlled, sports
Tattoos are for people not afraid to garner the scorn of people like yourself. You talk AS IF you are standing on some sort of moral or ethical high ground or speaking for “normal people”, Your young age makes your ignorance a little more understandable.
Your small and narrow world veiw belies a fear of what is not like you and your immediate environment. If someone doesn’t have the same values and priorities as you, there must be something wrong with them.
I have delt with people like yourself all my life and my conclusion is that the best response is to pat you on your pointy little head and smile realizing that a few more years will do you some good.
the only people that deserve to have their private space privileges revoked because of the wearing of a tattoo are the people with tattoos on their face.
people should their space, preferably with a hypodermic needle full of sterilization drugs.
“people should INVADE their space” is what i meant to type, sorry for the typo
I addressed this issue in part of a larger piece on being a tattooed female:
http://bunnika.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/the-inked-feminist-body-mods-and-the-ownership-of-self/
That said, I support the message that was aimed for here, but I’m side-eying a lot of this piece pretty hard. Comparing tattoos to the skin of a burn victim, for example? Wildly inappropriate, and a demonstration of able-bodied privilege. The use of the term “molest” is also an inappropriate metaphor, and reeks of privilege itself. (“Molest” falls under an umbrella with terms like “rape” which are just not appropriate to use outside of their literal meanings in mature, modern discourse.)
I get what you were going for, but this could do with a lot of clean-up. You’ve also got a couple grammatical errors, at least one of which makes a point directly opposite from what you were aiming for. (Fourth paragraph, fourth sentence should read “if misguided,” not “if not misguided.”)
Dear, “observer”
I do not know Nathan nor do I know what his tattoos consist of. I do , however, understand from your ignorant holy and ever so pretentious princess-esque blabber, you accomplished nothing more than letting the general public know you are a prick.. Yes, i also think it is dumb as all hell to spend student loans and credit cards to get a full body blast because you know there’s short term loose women and dumbfounded respect from other dumb assholes. I however have a pretty decent amount of tattoos, and most of them do hold a personal deep value. I love my job , my employers respect me, I have a pretty reasonable fraction of tattooed skin. My bottom line is, I don’t ever want to work for a close minded bastard like yourself who is may happen to shallowly judge a potentially above par employee. Im assuming you also think affirmative action is fair too? Its not, by the way. Nor is that a racist or sexist remark by all means. My point being, we lived in a different changing day and age then whenever the fuck you tried to get a job doing god knows what and where. … but aside from the fact i could care less if you were a trash man. a CEO. or evidently a son of a CEO.
Yes, I’m also aware that your sorority girl comments had sole intentions of low blow jabbing, so what I’m trying to get at is, i am truly… well, just a little bit sorry that i had erased 10 minutes of my life letting you know you are a just a big pussy scared of getting tattooed. You and I both know you wanna get touched by strangers, live a little you prude bitch.
love drew
p.s. yeah theres a shit ton of grammar errors, im drunk as shit, sp please feel free to retaliate on the topic of my unintelligence
another ps, nathan you wrote a stellar article, the only reason im so goddamned mad is because that stupid dick head was so quick to inform you of how badly criticized it was destined to be. fuck him, im going to sleep
Excellent piece. I look forward to reading more of your articles in RVAnews in the future.
Thank you all for your feedback. I see that if I am a “troll”, I am in good company when frequenting this page, as you all have taken ample license to call me all sorts of names; yet I am the ‘troll’ and instigator. I will leave you all to your own little world and I will return to mine. Good day.
Observer.
Great article Nathan! Definitely something that needs to be voiced!
Great responses too ;) have to love when people, hmmm voice personal views..Kicking up an endless debate!
Lesson learned.
Call a troll a troll and he gets upset and leaves.
Now you all know how to deal with trolls.
yeah observer, whydont you STFU. in december ’10 when i got my sleves of stars, skulls &anchors, that shyt was mad originul. now everybodys tryin to copy my idea—NOT MY FALT. so now i got my name across my neckline, try and copy that you posers. your a fkin troll ass, my tall bike is the way to go when gettn around ric–i always kno which 1 is mine–cant no1 take that w/o me jumpin there ass. my boys, we do ride mopeds, yes, and yes, we do have alot of ink. come on down to salvation or lucky 13 we will show you haw cool we are when we crush ur pointy lil head observer. we are better than u, imean wat kind of lame bands u listen to. yea andrew venable, matt and max, ime tryin to chill n kick it soemtime, u kno if ur tryin to ill wit me u gotta have some tats—otherwise ile kcik ur sorry ass. and for observer, u obvuisoly suck cuz u got to work, im gettn paid from the parentals CUZ IM AWSOUME so the joke is on you. and yeah, ime about to graduate with a studio arts majer, about to go to NYC and show u how its done. and no I WILL NEVER have to covr up my sleeaves, or chestpiece, or the ink on my neck—why? cuz there awesime. YES i will get that job u got ternd down for cuz ur am uptight POS. NO i will never stop gettn tats. YES u can call me a sencseter but u will be rong, jus cuz i wear scarves n shyt, hey man, i didnt envint my toms shoes, i just started the goodamn trend here in ric.
Ya know, I don’t see much point in getting worked up over this topic or its responses, passionately pro-tattoo though I may be. I’m going to assume that Observer isn’t merely trolling, that he really feels that way. And I’m feelin’ sorry for him, for the simple reason that I think (having lived the many places I have, and known the many people I’ve known) it makes life richer when you associate with a variety of people. Hear their stories. Let them be the threads in the tapestry that they are. The fact that you (Observer) are 24 makes me doubly sad. I had assumed you were older by far…and you are in the military? Have you not seen your officers in less than full sleeved uniform before? Because I’ve met some really high ranking guys with some extensive ink. Just not on hands, neck, or head areas.
And I’ll reiterate that merely because a person isn’t trying to climb the ladder to CEO does NOT mean they deserve anyone’s scorn or derision. Next you’ll be telling us musicians and artists have no place in society and they should stop teaching that stuff in schools…not everyone needs to be or think or look just like you, to be worthy of respect man.
Looks like I’m a bit late finding this thread, hope Observer still checks in…
I think Observer got a shitty tattoo when he was young and now that he is old it looks even worse and he wishes he could have a fresh new “scenester” tattoo of a paperclip or a cupcake to make himself feel better… I’m sure we could recommend someone god for him:)
I have tattoos, one visible in short sleeves and one very rarely visible; I love them both. I’m a 35 year old fully employed critical care paramedic (not a “scenester” or a “hipster”) and do need to have my tattoos covered while working and I am totally fine with that. My employer has the right to make me conform to their standards, and if I don’t like it then I have the right to quit and go somewhere else. Most people I work with who don’t know me outside of work don’t even know I have them. I am however very proud of my most recent tattoo) still a work in progress) and wear short sleeves when not working. I love my tattoos and know they will not look the same in 30 years so that’s why I need to enjoy them now! Much the same thinking as when I was in school and dyed my hair various colors and shaved my head, you need to enjoy your life while you can (nobody makes it out alive anyway!) and life your life to the fullest. I do not do the things I do to gain friends or impress others, I do the things I do because I like them; honestly, I don’t care if you don’t like them. By the way, I also cut and color my hair on a regular basis… I hope I don’t regret that when I’m in my 80’s too.
Observer – I think you should do a little more research before typing things you expect people to read as truths. Below I have referenced your post numbers with some of your inaccuracies.
#14 Entropy… not used to describe how your body regenerates, usually refers to energy; regeneration would be the proper term for what the body does.
#14 “… silly dyes injected into your skin and later incorporated into macrophages” This statement just makes no logical sense. BRIEFLY, macrophages are white blood cells that respond within your body to investigate foreign invaders and begin the healing process. They do initially respond to your tattoo, but are usually not seen after the second month (man, there’s a lot of useless info on the inter-web!).
#20 You list occupations that would not want to have “a decorated gentleman” to include “public school principal, state governor, dentist, or public relations officer”. These are jobs that usually require you to wear a suit throughout your day, so how would you even know if these folks had tattoos?
By the way, what kind of job do you have that you can post so frequently on this thread that has caused you to think yourself so superior to the rest of us?
#20 The statistics I found stated that about 17% of people who got tattoos regretted them (usually because they contained someone’s name) with that in mind; it would seem that it is much more common for someone to regret getting married than to regret their tattoos. (Just sayin…) I’m sure the tattoo removal business is doing just fine and that some weak minded individuals do get childish scribbles or doodles or whatever else you liken everyone’s tattoos too and decide later to get them removed. There are also some who represent themselves as artists and do some monstrous things to (on) other people’s bodies (probably why there is a need for artists that can do cover-ups… duh…).
#35 I know people are going to stare at my tattoo, it’s beautiful and I would stare too! I don’t care who you think will now accept me and who won’t; I didn’t go to a “crusty tattoo shop”, nor did I pick flash from a wall and I would say 98% of people who posted here could say the same.
#35 “No one here has yet to address the question of the tattoo removal industry.” I think that’s because no one here wants to have theirs removed… I have not done much research into the tattoo removal business because I don’t require their services.
#35 Gizzards… humans don’t have these.
#35 I also suspect most of us posting don’t drive mopeds and have emo mop-top hair.
#45 Ok, so now you elude to a job… but not really… kind of like how you say no one has answered your questions… I know lots of people employed by the Dept of Defense who have tattoos… didn’t seem to keep them from getting jobs… Oh yeah, and I did my time as an employee of the Dept of Defense too.
#47 “Many people covered in tattoos do in fact ride mopeds and dress in the ‘emo’ or ‘scenster’ manner, and should I select a random moped rider from a pack of them, the chances are very good that they would have a few gaudy, tacky, clip art tattoos.” I think the proper way to state this would be ‘many people who dress in the emo or scenester style also have tattoos’. Not the other way around. Not all fruits are apples. “This sort of desperate cry for attention doesn’t impress me.” I REALLY don’t think anyone here is looking to impress you.
#47 There you go again with telling us what kinds of jobs we can get! I think I am very well qualified to hold a job that would include a label of “public position of responsibility”. And, if you were to interview me for such a job, you would never see m tattoos. I am not sure if you are aware, but there are MANY police officers, firefighters, nurses and paramedics with tattoos… I think that qualifies as a “public position of responsibility”.
#49 “…denied a job because you have a spider on your neck or a line of tiger paw prints on your titty.” If my “titty” is hanging out in a job interview then I shouldn’t get the job anyway… unless it’s a job stripping. Honestly, what do you think people wear to job interviews?
Observer, you are laughable and I hope you enjoy your little Utopia you have found for yourself behind your closed door and four walls.
Hey Nathan, you’ve done it again! So glad you are trained and more in the fine arts of communication. They obviously ‘took’ on you. What a wonderful language we have in English: you play well with it in the sandbox.
Is Chris “In the Morning” from Northern Exposure one of your role models? You do him credit. (Add a bit more Jung and H.L. Mencken to your pieces, perhaps.)
OUTSTANDING article, and very well-written. I also enjoyed Heather’s comments as well.